From the Galactic Civilizations Wiki

Contents 1 Averages aren't that simple 2 An example 3 fsk+ says 3.1 Request article cleanup 3.2 Huge vs. Tiny

[edit] Averages aren't that simple

Guys you must realise that average attack minus average defence doesn't give the average damage!

Average attack incorporates all possible attack values from 0 to max. Same about defence. So if you're using the "atk - def = dmg" formula with averages it must work for ALL possible cases. Does it? No, it does not work when the defence roll is higher than the attack roll. According to the formula, this gives "negative damage". And this affects the actual calculation, because when you're using this formula it assumes that high defence rolls RESTORE hitpoints.

Think logically if you attack with an avg dmg 2 vs avg def 2 is the avg dmg 2 - 2 = 0? No, but the zero is there because "negative damage" is added to averages too. The actual average damage is 0,444 but I have yet to come up with a proper formula for this.

I can't believe the whole article is built on this flawed argument.

[edit] An example

Lets say a 3 atk ship attacks a ship with 2 def.

This is what the atk - def = dmg formula assumes:

(columns show attack rolls, rows show defence rolls)

	0	1	2	3
0	0	1	2	3
1	-1	0	1	2
2	-2	-1	0	1

Average dmg = (0+1+2+3-1+0+1+2-2-1+0+1)/12 = 6/12 = 0.5.

Or using the simpler formula 1.5 - 1 = 0.5.

This is obviously wrong.

This is how is really works:

	0	1	2	3
0	0	1	2	3
1	0	0	1	2
2	0	0	0	1

Average dmg = (1+1+1+2+2+3)/12 = 10/12 = 0.83

So far I haven't found any simpler way for calculating average damage, any ideas?

	0	1	2	3
0	0	1	2	3
1	0	0	1	2
2	0	0	0	1

This is also wrong. There attack can't roll 0 and also defence can't roll 0, unless u don't have attack or defence, acording to GalCiv2Manual.pdf(see page no. 46 Ship VS Ship combat). If u don't have attack is easy avg dmg=0 and if u don't have defence avg dmg= (1+A)/2. EDIT: I think it can me indeed a roll of 0 in both cases (ATK, DEF). this can be easily checked by attacking a ship with 0 defense and check for 0 damage rolls

So we have to change that matrix removing colomuns and rows that contains imposible rolls, actualy they aren't imposibile, but are not posible when u have attack and defence higher than 0.

	1	2	3
1	0	1	2
2	0	0	1

Now let's update the calculation (1+2+1)/6= 0.66 . This is the average dmg recived.

(SUM(a*(a-1)/2))/(A*D)= AVG DMG           Values of a = A-x
                                          x={0,1,...D}

A=attack D=defense

This should be the formula, but it's not realy much easier than drawing matrix. Hope i got it right.

But there is one infinite loop in this formula ship with 1 beam attack and 1 shield vs 1 beam and 1 shield.

[edit] fsk+ says

The value for attack and defense is a number from 0 to the value. **CORRECTION** Attack is a number from 1 to the value, and defense is a roll from 0 to the value, confirmed by the experiment indicated below.

So, two ships with 1 point of defense and 1 point of attack won't be stuck in an infinite loop because the defense roll is 50/50 zero or one points.

I agree that the combat system needs better explaining.

---

I tested round 200 shots: 1 beam attack vs 0 defence. Result "damage" = "no. of shots fired". So every shot did exactly 1 dmg. Tested mostly(80%) vs ships with 0 attack(starbases) and some with attack present.

So attack roll can't be lower than 1 or higher if u have 1 beam(any weapon), unless my test was subject to extreme luck aka.statisticaly imposibile.

Next thing that should be tested is 1 beam vs 1 shield to see the % of 0 dmg attacks. If the previous post is correct it should be 50%.

---

Thanks to quick programming and Excel, here is a graph of average damage with various attack/defense. X axis is defense (from 0-24), the Y axis is weapon strength (1-24), and the Z axis is average damage. I ran this for numbers from 0-100 and 1-100, but the results were difficult to read and the graph has the same shape. Running it for different configurations such as using diverse weapons (eg: 4/4/4 vs 12/0/0) showed that spreading weapon power quickly reduced the average damage as defenses grew larger. Mixing defenses varies when faced against mixed attack ships, improving quite as both offense and defense numbers grew larger. However, this assumed a perfectly even distribution of both weapons and defense. Should the attacker focus on one weapon type, the defender does better by focusing on that defense.

[edit] Request article cleanup

I've noticed that a lot of the discussion is being carried out in the article itself, which makes it confusing for readers. At times, the sections contradict one another, and, on one occasion, there is even a refutation within the section itself.

I'm not familiar with the GalCiv wiki, but if it runs on similar principles as Wikipedia, shouldn't all this take place in the discussions page? Drastic article cleanup is required, in my opinion.

[edit] Huge vs. Tiny

1 strategy that i use is to mix them with varying ratios of armor to atack. for example i have arion missle defence researched, and am up to disruptors and antimatter torps (midlevel AI wont research 2 types of armor). if i put 2 PDs on a tiny hull and stick in a antimatter torp II and a warp drive, my attack to defence ratio is 8/20 (with bonuses its 9/34. play as drath legion with 50 def boost FTW! also have other boost up to 70% def boost, 25% atk boost). than i put 3 antimatter torps II and 5 disruptors (mabye II's) (cant remember exactl)y, then 3 PDs and a warp drive for 58/30 atk/def ratio (actual is like 65/51). when combat starts the large ship is targeted since it is percieved as a more easly dealt with threat than the tiny ships. with this strategy you can get high level tiny size ships (i have a trio of them with 22 HP). if you dont fight to often the huge ship will repair. Githyan 21:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)